David's story

[QB1]

Just seen this such an incredibly sad story, and what an amazing lady his Mum is -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq2xStb0R-c

[SupeRDel]

Have seen comments on Facebook blaming the moronic car driver etc, etc

There is a news piece that goes with this video that puts it a bit more into context

Motorcycle was doing 97mph when he hit the car.

[Trev]

Every rider's nightmare, that point beyond any chance of taking evasive action. So brave and thoughtful of his Mum to give this warning, it must have been very hard to do.

Give yourself a chance, reduce speed around junctions and traffic, cover the brakes, plan your options, expect the worse. Don't view throttling off/light braking as a negative in these situations, it gives you a chance to enjoy the acceleration a bike gives in getting you back to your 'cruising' speed. As with corners, slow in, quick out

[Mal103]

I think there has been enough said about who was to blame and what should or shouldn't have happened, I watched the vid earlier this morning and made a comment about the speed and the blind driver, now just thinking more about it not being me next, or anyone else.
We already know the roads are full of idiots and we are more vulnerable, ride safely. Hopefully the family can be satisfied it's a talking point and may help drivers/riders to think more.

Take care out there...

[QB1]

This is worth reading to understand a little more what happened for anyone who hasnt read it -

- http://www.derehamtimes.co.uk/news/inquest_hears_how_motorcyclist_david_holmes_was_tr avelling_at_97_miles_per_hour_down_the_a47_at_honi ngham_when_he_crashed_with_a_turning_car_1_3649858

[QB1]

I think there has been enough said about who was to blame and what should or shouldn't have happened, I watched the vid earlier this morning and made a comment about the speed and the blind driver, now just thinking more about it not being me next, or anyone else.
We already know the roads are full of idiots and we are more vulnerable, ride safely. Hopefully the family can be satisfied it's a talking point and may help drivers/riders to think more.

Take care out there...

I agree with you...but I think we are all those idiots at times, some of us are just lucky idiots.

[theoldbaldone]

Very sad to watch, watched it last night and got me thinking, being a newbie it has shown me that I need to watch my speed as well as watching others.
it must be hard for his mum to watch over and over, I hope this works for all road users. Be safe all

[Mal103]

I agree with you...but I think we are all those idiots at times, some of us are just lucky idiots.

i've done both (or similar) over the years and been lucky, I've been hanging on by my butt cheeks on a bend and putting the breaks on quick saying ohhhhh Shiite. Had a car pull out on me, fell off a few times, pulled out making someone break. Always managed to get away with missing, stopping or coming off with just scratches. I challenge anyone to say they haven't had similar experiences.
never had a bad crash though, only car I've hit was one that pulled out on me early on.
Balance the above with over 27 years of riding/driving and thousands of miles then I think I am either lucky or semi good. I think we owe it to ourselves, our friends/family and other road users to take it easy and take care. Won't be long before someone tries to ban bikes as being dangerous.

sorry to come across as preaching a bit but inexperienced riders really need to be aware, there is nothing wrong with speed, it's the inability to stop in time when things change or go wrong - that's when it's too late...

[WR6133]

Whatever is said about his riding if you slap that video full screen and put it on 720p you see just how long that car could/should have see him. I think the speed is irrelevant to where to attribute fault the car driver is guilty of deadly incompetence. Maybe the speed is relevant to the final consequence (death) though I wonder if he had come off at 60 and headplanted that hedge/tree would he have fared any better.

[Burbler]

At that speed the bike is covering some 50 yds per second. The car may well look and not see a head-on bike 150-200 yds away. Pulling away and swinging right may well take more than 3 secs. It just all happens too fast for either of them to compensate.

[Davegsr]

As the saying goes - 'There but for the grace of God go I'. There's a risk in everything we do, but the negative outcomes to some of our choices of what we do or risks we take are more severe than others. That doesn't stop me making those choices or taking those risks, but I do so with a greater awareness.

Then you get a day like today - warm sunny weather - no commitments - a big powerful bike - long straight roads - flowing bends - everything you need to up the ante.

No drama or near miss today, but I'm not naive and I do know it's as much down to luck as it is to skill and judgement.

Hope everyone else is back safely tonight.

[Throttle_junkie]

Thats what i was thinking, but didnt know how to say it

[Mal103]

That's a fine attitude if it's just yourself, your bike and a race track as nobody else would be affected if you pushed it too far and lost control. In this instance the numpty car driver deserved to get done for not paying attention, they may have even had to live with causing an accident where a Biker was hurt, they did NOT deserve to live with having someone die, the excessive speed and risk taking ensured it was going to end badly, nothing to do with luck.

Experience should tell you that you cannot rely on luck, you have to ride within your limits, the limits of your bike and the conditions. How many times have you predicted someones mistake and have slowed down so when it does play out you can stop, "sign", toot, etc instead of smashing into them because you are unlucky.
Before you say it, i'm not a Sunday driver equivalent on two wheels, I was happily pushing a ton last week in certain places but yesterday was in exactly the same situation as the rider that died, with someone waiting to turn right across my path - experience told me to slow the f down and I went past at 47 not 97.
Don't wait for the luck to run out!

[Davegsr]

Hi Mal103, I don't disagree with what you've said, but my interpretation of 'luck' is loosely based on "a purposeless, unpredictable and uncontrollable force that shapes events favorably or unfavorably for an individual, group or cause". I ride defensively and minimise my risks according to events and surroundings as I perceive them, but sometimes 's**t happens'. You just cannot account for all eventualities, sometimes you are literally 'in the wrong place at the wrong time' no matter what has gone on before whether intentional or not.

[Trev]

Dave, I understand what you mean - personally I don't believe in luck good or bad, no walking under ladders and all that guff and not too sure about a 'force shaping events' but certainly circumstances can play a huge part. Some years ago (ok many year ago!) I was blatting home from work late at night on my LC when a deer jumped into the road in literally right in front of me, I ducked and turned away certain of an impact and looked around a split second later to see it bound off to my left rear. I had no chance to brake or take evasive action, if I had arrived a split second earlier the deer would have landed on me, the same split second later and it would have wiped me out as it made it's second jump.

Not sure what that says other than a reminder of your post, you can't cover everything

[Mal103]

No probs Dave and sorry for coming across a bit strong earlier. I am sure there are plenty of occasions when bad luck strikes and there is nothing you can do about it, like a near miss with a deer! At the other end of the scale is taking excessive risks where luck has nothing to do with it.
I think there are a whole bunch of occasions in between that are part luck and part skill, like riding fast round a bend and slipping on mud, I don't think that is totally unlucky, I think it's mostly bad riding. Depends what you think is luck, I would rather ride the best I can.

[Davegsr]

No need to apologise Mal, you've expressed a valid opinion and reason. The point of a forum is bringing together people with a common interest, not necessarily a common point of view. This is such an emotive issue and my heart goes out to the family and friends of David. This is too much of a common occurrence on our roads and if nothing else it should serve to remind all of us of our own mortality. Preservation is the key issue. If what we talk about here on the forum translates to more vigilance and a possible change to riding manners, style or attitude on the road then his mother's action of posting the video has served a purpose and perhaps made a difference.

[wiltshire builders]

I was having a conversation about this the other day.
You can be a bad driver all day long and have no problems what-so-ever.
Despite what we all think, most drivers are very good and capable. They pick up the slack and compensate for the bad driving by taking evasive action or giving a wide berth.
It's when 2 bad drivers meet that you get accidents.
I expect David had ridden that road a hundred times before with no problems so he felt confident enough to go that bit faster.
I expect the Clio driver had pulled out without looking before but, thanks to the skill of other drivers, had never caused an accident.
It was just bad timing that these 2 people were on the same stretch of road at precisely that point in time.
A few seconds either way and it would've be a happier story.
Both were at fault but it's just unfortunate one of them lost their life.
Judging by what his mum said, he seemed like a really cool guy.

[Burbler]

Both were at fault but it's just unfortunate one of them lost their life.
Judging by what his mum said, he seemed like a really cool guy.

I don't see that the car driver should be expected and able to allow for a bike closing at 50 yds per second. It is outside normal road experience. Even if he did see the bike nearly 1/4 mile away he would have thought that he'd plenty of time to turn right across that road. He had about 4 secs.
Go on, count it out and do a right turn...No, I put the fault 100% on the bike.

[wiltshire builders]

I don't see that the car driver should be expected and able to allow for a bike closing at 50 yds per second. It is outside normal road experience. Even if he did see the bike nearly 1/4 mile away he would have thought that he'd plenty of time to turn right across that road. He had about 4 secs.
Go on, count it out and do a right turn...No, I put the fault 100% on the bike.

Lucky you're not a magistrate then.
The driver didn't see the bike or the car behind it and as a result got a 12 month suspended sentence.
The police report states that the bike and the car behind were clearly visible for 7 seconds. Count that.
More than enough time to judge the situation.
That driver was concentrating on something other than driving and as a result someone else is dead.
They have to accept some responsibility For their lack of care.

[shiftyblake]

Just mental reckless speed, sorry but when you know car drivers are blind. Yes of course it's very sad, sorry not to be all "I hate car drivers" but riders like that are asking for it and in away it wasn't a suprise... Hope it does help make reckless riders think about their own lives.. But I doubt it.

[Burbler]

Lucky you're not a magistrate then.
The driver didn't see the bike or the car behind it and as a result got a 12 month suspended sentence.
The police report states that the bike and the car behind were clearly visible for 7 seconds. Count that.
More than enough time to judge the situation.
That driver was concentrating on something other than driving

So...new facts. We now have evidence that the car driver was concentrating on something else.
Also that the bike was 'clearly visible' for 7 secs. That puts the distance at over 330 yds !!.
How many times has anyone turned right onto or off of a road having 'clearly seen' a vehicle 330 yds away ?

I know that I have - thousands of times. However, thankfully, those vehicles were not doing 100 mph.

[Mal103]

I think the report was stating that the driver would have had the bike (and other car) visible for about 7 seconds as it was approaching to turn right, I think they pulled out well within 100 yards as the bike had about a second to try and react.
So the driver would have had time to "see" other traffic if they were paying attention, by their own admission they stated that they didn't see them. A bit different from actually seeing them over 300 yrds away. Saying that the driver deserved something but not the death of another human.
To keep things in balance the same report stated that if the bike was doing 60 it would have probably been able to avoid the car.

I used to reduce speed when near junctions and keep a close eye on any traffic waiting to turn or pull out, it was noted on Sunday by the Mrs (riding pillion) that I was a lot more cautious and one time almost came to a stop as the car was "creeping". I think this is the most important effect that we should all be thinking about so well done to the family of David for allowing this video to go out and causing the debate. We can thrash out the details and everyones opinions for ages but great news if it makes us think more. Also confirms the fact that a "lot" of drivers are idiots, like the ones this morning driving in thick fog without lights...

Think Bike, Think Biker - Biker Think! Where as cyclists are fair game and should all be shot... :)

[theoldbaldone]

I think this is getting out of hand, yes they are both in the wrong, there is no question as 1 was not watching and 1 was speeding, if a motorbike had pulled out with out looking fully and a car hit it at 97mph, who would you blame then, at the end of the day, a mother has lost a son and want she is trying to do is show that everyone needs to THINK when on the road.

[Burbler]

Think Bike, Think Biker - Biker Think! Where as cyclists are fair game and should all be shot... :)

Now that's a whole new kettle of ball games. Agree completely...well maybe 90% of the idiots. Get registered, get insured, get taxed.

[Burbler]

663

[wiltshire builders]

So...new facts. We now have evidence that the car driver was concentrating on something else.
Also that the bike was 'clearly visible' for 7 secs. That puts the distance at over 330 yds !!.
How many times has anyone turned right onto or off of a road having 'clearly seen' a vehicle 330 yds away ?

I know that I have - thousands of times. However, thankfully, those vehicles were not doing 100 mph.
Have you actually watched the video or are you just trying to be clever?
The car starts turning immediately infront of the bike.
Not 330yards as you're trying to state.
If that was the case any modern bike would have been able to stop in time.
Thinking and braking distance at 90 mph is 100 yards so clearly you are basing good mathematics on bad information.

As for you comment regarding "expressing your opinion" you didn't. You made a statement saying that David was 100% to blame.
Unfortunately there are comments like that surrounding this story which probably make his parents wish that hadn't been so brave as to release the footage.
It's easy to forget that the people left behind to pick up the pieces also have to read comments like this.
That can't be very nice.

[WR6133]

Probably just stoking the fire here but for anyone doubting the car drivers entire fault for the accident itself (not the consequence of the accident which is a different thing), a driving examiner will fail you if you fail to

"Judge both speed and distance of approaching vehicles, take advantage of safe gaps in the traffic but you must not cause others to change speed or direction because of your action"

The car driver didn't look but if they had the speed is still irrelevant there is no mention in the above about it not needing to be applied because the approaching vehicle is speeding.

[Julie_S]

Don't know why, but the positioning of that car and the awkward way it went across the junction suggests an elderly driver. We need to remember that however we think people should react, or whatever the law says they should be doing, not every one does or even can react as per the highway code, or in the case of a lot of older folk, can. Even if you are on the ball at 80, if you started driving with traffic moving at 50mph high speeds will be impossible to comprehend

My father spent his entire life as a professional driver on rigid and then articulated lorries after leaving the army in 1951, some years back and aged around 74 he misjudged the speed of a rep mobile when on his way to Nortree Motors for petrol (yes, I can almost guarantee he was speeding, my Dad had not lost his faculties) and pulled into it's path. He was heart broken that he had damaged his beloved Rover 400, and worse, his pride as he had never had an accident of his doing in all that time. We all know what we should be doing but not everyone can do that

Aside from the old folk we need to be aware of the non-UK drivers (unfamiliar confusing roads,road markings or maybe a bit of bravado as powerful cars are cheap in the UK for a young bloke) Depressingly they have done a grand job in upping the fatal RTAs in Wiltshire in the last 2 years

When I am out on my bike in my head I am a Spitfire pilot - everyone else is there to try and take me out, or for me to take out and everything is at stake

[Snowy]

Don't know why, but the positioning of that car and the awkward way it went across the junction suggests an elderly driver. We need to remember that however we think people should react, or whatever the law says they should be doing, not every one does or even can react as per the highway code, or in the case of a lot of older folk, can. Even if you are on the ball at 80, if you started driving with traffic moving at 50mph high speeds will be impossible to comprehend

My father spent his entire life as a professional driver on rigid and then articulated lorries after leaving the army in 1951, some years back and aged around 74 he misjudged the speed of a rep mobile when on his way to Nortree Motors for petrol (yes, I can almost guarantee he was speeding, my Dad had not lost his faculties) and pulled into it's path. He was heart broken that he had damaged his beloved Rover 400, and worse, his pride as he had never had an accident of his doing in all that time. We all know what we should be doing but not everyone can do that

Aside from the old folk we need to be aware of the non-UK drivers (unfamiliar confusing roads,road markings or maybe a bit of bravado as powerful cars are cheap in the UK for a young bloke) Depressingly they have done a grand job in upping the fatal RTAs in Wiltshire in the last 2 years

When I am out on my bike in my head I am a Spitfire pilot - everyone else is there to try and take me out, or for me to take out and everything is at stake


Benjamin Austin, the driver of the Renault Clio was 29 years old. From what I can see, there's nothing in the video footage that suggests anything whatsoever about the drivers age, but don't let that stop the WB Accident Investigation Unit from mooting their opinion's on the cause of this accident :rolleyes:

[Ducatista]

As long as people are talking about it - that's the main thing and what his parents want.

My view is that the car driver is to blame for the accident, but the biker has severely reduced his chances of avoiding the accident or reducing the severity of the crash due to excessive speed.
As others have mentioned there can be unavoidable things that happen - like a deer jumping out at the last minute. That's an inherent risk that up you have to accept if you ride a bike.
In this case there is time to react (and he does verbally react), so at slower speed the severity could have been reduced if not avoided altogether. That does not mean that what the car driver did was ok, simply that he reduced his options severely by doing 97mph.

None of us are perfect and I'm sure lots of us get away with many things.
I make mistakes all the time, but I try to allow enough contingency to allow for both my mistakes and those of others.

Btw - I think I'd consider 60 too fast for passing that junction for my own eyesight/reactions/skill level considering the layout.

I welcome all the discussion.
Whether we agree with all the points or not, the parents made the difficult decision of publishing it so we'd all talk/think about it.

Boris bike next week (@/#% - did I just admit to being a cyclist !!)

[Rabb]

I always keep in mind two words "What if"
RIP David
What wonderful brave parents.
All power to you.

[Republic]

A Remarkable Mother telling the story of her dear son tragic loss, very moving
RIP David,

[Throttle_junkie]

Here's one to ponder. How many of us drive cars/vans/trucks etc? When you are waiting to pull across traffic, what do you do if you see a biker coming your way. Would you wait and allow him/her to pass, or would you make the turn? Bearing in mind not everyone adheres to the speed limit. I for one would play it safe and wait for him/her to pass, then make the turn. Iv been commuting from Swindon to Southampton for about 4 weeks on my bike, and i have learned some valuable riding skills, and have reeled in my speed at junctions, as iv had at least 5 instances of cars chancing there luck at junctions, and even sweeping off the slip road on the dual carriageway straight into the outside lane in front of me, and nearly on me. I even ride with a bright yellow Spidi Hi-Viz jacket. I am a strong believer that everyone should have a stint on a bike before climbing into a car, i hate to say it but we are all sitting ducks. As for David, we all have different views about this and that, but honestly, the car should have just waited for him to pass if he wasn't 100% sure of David's speed.

[Mal103]

When I'm on 4 wheels I NEVER pull out on a Biker however close they are, but I think you will find that the car driver admitted he never "saw" the bike or car behind it, in other words he didn't look or it didn't register.

I commute 10 hours a week either around or through Bath, as for your comment on being a sitting duck then you are right, you have to ride defensively or you won't last long. Think of it as a big game of Russian Roulette, one or more of the drivers is going to do something stupid - you just have to guess which one it is and when....
You can do your best by taking every precaution and riding safe - doesn't have to be slow - just safe.

[QB1]

When I'm on 4 wheels I NEVER pull out on a Biker however close they are.....

If you see them.

I feel really sorry for this mans family and have the utmost respect for them especially his Mum, what a truly amazing lady.

I also feel sorry for the car driver. It's not fair to expect him to have any one coming along a public road at nearly 100mph. I think despite what a lot of us say it would be easy to misjudge crossing the road when someone is tanking along at that speed.

I'm sure as bikers not a single one of us can hand on heart say their wasnt one time when we went way too fast. Fact is he was going way too fast and was unlucky.

It's made me think......

[Vulcanboy]

An interesting discussion. For my Euros worth, the car driver was wrong not to have seen the bike and other vehicle, or, at least, not to have reacted in a proper way. The motorcyclist did not cause the accident, but severely reduced his chances of avoiding the accident, let alone surviving it .... there are plenty of bits of road where you can open up the throttle and do 160+ mph if you have a mind to, which are quite safe from all but leaping deer and pheasants etc ..... this road junction was not one of them .... 97 mph gave this poor young man no chance .... and even if the car driver did see him, he may well have pulled out, anyway.:(. RIP . Richard